Official Caddying Story: Jon Orszag
In this episode of Caddyshack to Corner Office, host Kai Sato welcomes Jon Orszag, Founding Partner of Econic Partners, an economic consulting firm with a global footprint. He was previously a co-founder of Compass Lexecon, LLC, an economic consulting firm. Prior to entering the private sector, Jon served as the Assistant to the U.S. Secretary of Commerce and Director of the Office of Policy and Strategic Planning. Jon shares his unique journey from caddying at Brooklawn Country Club to advising major corporations on mergers, antitrust matters, and economic strategy. The discussion examines Jon’s remarkable career trajectory — including working with President Clinton at the White House right after graduating from Princeton — and explores his lifelong passion for golf. He reflects on the invaluable lessons golf has taught him, his extensive involvement as a board member of both the TGR Foundation (formerly the Tiger Woods Foundation) and The First Tee, and why he continues to give back to the game he loves. Jon has accomplished the rare feat of playing Golf's Top 100 Courses, where he has also served as a course rater.
Jon currently serves on the Board of Directors of the Friends of the Global Fight Against AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria, as well as the Board of the First Tee (both nationally and in Los Angeles) and the TGR Foundation. Orszag also serves on the Academic and Regulatory Advisory Council for Coinbase One River Asset Management. Orszag received a M.Sc. from Oxford University, which he attended as a Marshall Scholar. He graduated summa cum laude in Economics from Princeton University, was elected to Phi Beta Kappa, and was named a USA Today All-USA College Academic Team. He is also a graduate of Phillips Exeter Academy.
The following transcript is AI-generated and has undergone only minor edits. Please refer to the video recording for direct quotes.
Kai Sato (00:01.137)
Welcome to Caddyshack to Corner Office, where we recognize the most accomplished people who once caddied and grow the game by assisting those following their path. I'm your host, Kai Sato. Today, I am lucky to be joined by my dear, dear friend, Jon Orszag. Jon, thanks for taking some time.
Jon Orszag (00:12.814)
you
Jon Orszag (00:17.29)
It's great to be with you today. Really looking forward to this.
Kai Sato (00:20.455)
Well, let's first dive in on that backdrop because that does not look like some type of screen saver.
Jon Orszag (00:26.538)
It is not. I'm very fortunate that my office overlooks the south course of LA Country Club. You know, that's both a blessing and a curse. On good days, I get to stare out there and see it and it makes me really happy. But then I also get jealous of those who get to go play while I'm stuck in the office. So it really can go both directions for me.
Kai Sato (00:46.611)
For people who are just listening to this, don't get to see the video. Jon not only has Los Angeles LACC, but you can probably spot some other golf courses if you really wanted to try hard there. It's pretty salivating.
Jon Orszag (01:02.072)
You you can probably almost, if you look correctly, see your course, Bel Air, back there in the distance.
Kai Sato (01:07.719)
Yeah, plays all right. Before we learn a little bit more about your caddying background, would you mind just telling listeners what it is you do, where you work, and kind of how you got to this corner office, quite literally and figuratively.
Jon Orszag (01:22.094)
Well, I started my career in government. When I left school, I went to go work for President Clinton on the National Economic Council at the White House. And I spent a number of years working for President Clinton. And when I left the government, I was trying to find something that matched my desire to marry economics, which is what I had studied with work in policy and then also in business. And my brother and I started an economic consulting firm.
And at the time, the things that most interested me were working on antitrust matters or merger matters. And so what I've really done for the last 25 years is help to analyze business conduct and analyze mergers and ask the question of if as a result of the merger, the merging parties can raise prices or harm quality in some ways, the government will seek to block the merger. And if...
the merger won't do that, then they'll allow the merger to go forward. So I help to advise companies on those questions before the government. And then oftentimes those matters have to go before courts. And so I'll do that as well.
Kai Sato (02:30.939)
Incredible and you've recently started a new shop. Is that correct? You might tell us a little bit about that.
Jon Orszag (02:34.99)
That is correct.
Sure, so it's called Econic Partners, I'm advertising today. So we've got some funding from two of my former colleagues as well as from Goldman Sachs and some friends. And we started this firm in the beginning of the year. We already have more than 200 employees as of today. And then we have another 75 or so who have committed to join. And we have...
offices already in Europe, the United States, and China. So we've done exceedingly well. We had an amazing second quarter, our first full quarter of operation this year. Did something on the range of 60 million in revenue and people were utilized and so we were profitable. So it was a really great quarter.
Kai Sato (03:24.711)
Congratulations, I get to be a fly on the wall for a lot of this stuff. But it's truly one of the more unique businesses you'll hear of. And by far the most unique, I'd say, in terms of working with government, economy, dealing with antitrust that we've ever had on this show. Because you're a bit in a class of your own. And I'm glad you got to explain it, because I still have no idea what you actually do.
Jon Orszag (03:47.406)
There's many people who have no idea what I do. So it's not a bad thing to live in that world of a little bit of being opaque.
Kai Sato (03:56.995)
We're going to circle back and I'm going to have some more questions about that. And I know people want to know more about your world, but can we touch on the caddying piece? Where'd you first caddy? How old were you and how'd you get started?
Jon Orszag (04:10.454)
Yeah. So I started playing golf when I was 12 years old and I, my grandparents lived in Fairfield, Connecticut, and I'd go to visit them often in the summers. And, there was a beautiful course right around the corner from them called Brooklawn country club, which has hosted various LPGA events. And I heard that they were looking for caddies and I was a sort of teenager. And when I'd go visit my grandparents in the summer, my first experiences were going over there and.
you know, arriving first thing in the morning and trying to get a loop and it would be hot. the memories I have are mostly trying to find shade in the sort of in the middle of the summer as some, let's just say, not great golfers were hitting the ball many, many times.
Kai Sato (04:58.023)
Why'd you even get into golf at age 12?
Jon Orszag (05:01.058)
Well, was a fortuitous moment. My grandfather quit and he handed me his clubs and he was like, maybe you would enjoy playing. And so I started trying to hit a golf ball and he'd take me to this little par three golf course and I loved it. And I fell in love with the game and that challenge of hitting the ball well. And I literally fell in love with it and I was lucky.
We spent a lot of our summers in Maine and there's this little nine hole course. It was extremely cheap as a teenager to go play. And so I would take the clubs and I'd go play. And there was an old guy, this named Gil Priestley, who took a liking to me and sort of taught me a lot about the game. And I'd go out and play with him. And he was a terrific, when he was younger, hockey player. was still a great golfer into his seventies. And so I used to...
play almost every morning with these old guys as like a teenager. And I was like this young kid who barely could hit the ball and they just, they took good care of me and I loved the game and I loved everything about it. And it really hooked me.
Kai Sato (06:10.865)
going to force you to talk about what you've done in the game and playing top 100 and some of the organizations with which you're involved. But in the interim, that is something that's so special about this game, how it bridges generations, how it introduces you to people who are not your kin, but they take a liking to mentors to often emerge on the other side of it. You started packing bags to gain some access, it sounded like. And who were these people? What was that experience like? Did did you?
get it right away. Was there a learning curve? Did you make any mistakes?
Jon Orszag (06:43.162)
I don't know anyone who has caddied who hasn't made a mistake. So let's just start with that. So clearly I made mistakes. My main motivation besides the $20 that you'd get for the loop was to be able to play Brooklawn on Mondays. And so if my recollection is correct is that I had to loop twice in a week and I got to play this beautiful golf course on Mondays. And so instead of playing the local public course,
that was, let's just say not the same as Brooklawn. I had that opportunity to play this beautiful course. And so my motivation was in part the money and in part the access to be able to play and get that experience of a better golf course.
Kai Sato (07:28.913)
And were you packing one bag at first? Was it two? Were they these big bags? Were they? What was it like?
Jon Orszag (07:33.39)
I was probably 15 years old at the time, so I was largely single-bagging it. There were a couple days I remember doing double bags and that idea of getting $40 for the loop was just the greatest thing that could ever happen to, like say I was 15 or 16 at the time, it was the best. But largely, in my recollection, a single-bag.
Kai Sato (07:55.813)
What would you do with 20 or even 40 bucks at that time?
Jon Orszag (08:00.622)
I think I was probably just buying some food or something like that, candy. I definitely wasn't saving it. I should have been better about it, but I was taking that opportunity to spend it.
Kai Sato (08:14.395)
And was the work particularly hard? Were the people nice? Was the course difficult to navigate?
Jon Orszag (08:21.358)
It wasn't. No, it's a pretty I mean, look, it's an old traditional golf course. So it wasn't it was it's a pretty tight layout. So it wasn't a very hard course to navigate. It's not like one of these modern courses that spread over, you know, hundreds of acres where walking it is not the easiest thing of all time. This was pretty straightforward. And so it wasn't very hard. And most of the people there knew how to play golf. They weren't necessarily great golfers, but
My recollection is largely it being pretty straightforward. You're out there for four hours. It was hot. It was the middle of the summer and the pay was nice and the rewards were nice.
Kai Sato (09:01.299)
Those are the key benefits. What did your family think of this? Because not a lot of them were golfers, my understanding.
Jon Orszag (09:07.822)
No one in my family is really a golfer. I tell a story, my brother, Peter, who's done okay for himself and now is the CEO of Lizard, once made a par once on one hole. And that's when he retired. He was done after that. The joke I tell though is he did it in front of a group of people while we were playing through. So he was all excited about that. But no one else in my family played.
Kai Sato (09:22.332)
and counting.
Kai Sato (09:26.067)
You
Jon Orszag (09:37.582)
My dad didn't play my mom didn't play my I haven't even older brother. He never touched the club and so it was only me and in part I think it was Because I got the set of clubs from my grandpa grandfather and and I spent a lot of time with my grandparents It was just this you know like desire to go try it and and There was something about the challenge of it that really hooked me and then once you get into the games
It's an amazing game because you can play it your whole lifetime. People of unequal abilities can play it with each other. If you're outside, it's exercise, it's different wherever you're playing it. And it's endlessly challenging. And that really tapped into something for me. And I really, for the rest of my life, so for the last, basically 40 years, I've been in love with this game and it's given me amazing friends.
I met you playing golf. met many of my best friends are people I met on the golf course or I met outside of golf and then we became closer friends playing golf. And so it's been a very special game to me and then I've been able fortunately to give back to it in lots of different ways. there's nothing, the game of golf to me is just one of those that...
is unique. There's very few other sports like it. And so to me, it's again been very special and important to me.
Kai Sato (11:12.625)
I've begged my buddy Johnny Orzak for a long time to share some of these things because I get to hear these stories. And for people who don't know, John is really one of these great ambassadors in the game for my vote. And I would say many others, not only has he played for those 40 years, he played at Princeton, but he is on the board of the first T national trustee, also deeply involved the Tiger Woods Foundation and has not only played the top 100 courses and stays current on that oftentimes, but is also
course reviewer and rater for golf.com golf magazine if I'm not mistaken. there are very few people I think who have not only accomplished what he has in the game but have that perspective and then you can go out there and then play a course and whether they like it or not they're not going to be a total jerk about it and like those are those are the cool things like yes we got to play actually our first trip was to Cyprus which was absolutely absurd that you had facilitated we got to squeeze pebble in there but
Can you when I when I first learned that you caddy it took a little bit of time I needed to know how and why and you know people see what you do for a living which is rather pronounced but and what you do in the world of golf but I think for a lot of listeners to understand that you you started just like any of us fall in love with the game learning that you can make a little scratch by packing bags and kind of working your way up whether it's to the top 100 or playing any course in the world and so
That's why I've forced you to share some of this today.
Jon Orszag (12:42.954)
I'm happy to. Again, I see this again as part of that whole experience of this game, which has been so good to me and given me so many opportunities. It's important to also leave the community woodpile a little bit bigger. And so I think it's important to explain these things.
Kai Sato (13:00.263)
Did you get good fast at the game? Did it come to you naturally? Did you struggle with it?
Jon Orszag (13:06.03)
Well, I didn't have anyone teaching me. I sort of, I was self-taught for those first few years and I'm not sure it came naturally. It came from brute force of dropping a ball and hitting it. And if I didn't hit it well, dropping another ball and hitting it again, just until I figured out how to do it. I mean, I can still remember being like 13 or 14 years old and thinking the best way to hit the golf ball was to actually have a backward press before I started my swing.
which obviously wasn't a very good idea. I got rid of that pretty quickly. I had a good friend who, or somebody I played with when I was probably 15, 16, who said, if a pro doesn't do it, I don't recommend that you do it either. And so I sort of took that advice and sort of, you watch these terrific players and they all have something that you can learn from their games.
Kai Sato (13:37.927)
Interesting.
Kai Sato (13:59.877)
Do you recall when you were caddying? Because you've effectively been a consultant in some form or another for a lot of your life. And for people who don't know John or don't get to know him, he's usually right as well. So it's just something that you bank. what was it like? no, no, Yeah, Mary, she's always right. You're always wrong. Hi, Mary. And no, think trying to imagine you as this 15-year-old, but having patience and also
Jon Orszag (14:12.974)
except when I'm at home, then I'm never.
100%.
Kai Sato (14:29.363)
trying to kind of maybe help a duffer around or things like that. you remember what that was like for you or especially as you had fallen in love with this game and were probably at that point hitting the ball pretty well?
Jon Orszag (14:41.71)
It's just part of the experience. Every time you're out there, you're learning. When I was a little bit older, I was, I think a freshman in college, one of our family friends was a very good player and had qualified for, I want to say the mid-AM or maybe it was a senior AM. And I caddied for him a few weeks later and the member guest at the local club and the club championship, the club that he belonged to.
And just remember part of it is watching him play. And I remember him telling me, giving me tips of like, you spend too much time hitting driver on the range. If I were you, hit, I'd spend all your time hitting shots inside a hundred yards. And I used to then go to the range and practice my wedge game. And he's like, look, you're going to hit a lot more shots inside a hundred yards. will dictate much more of your score than whether, you know, you hit the ball five yards farther or a little bit more accurate. So.
I thought that was very good advice at the time. My drivers probably suffered when I've gotten older as a result of that, but my wedge game fortunately still saves me.
Kai Sato (15:48.969)
I lived at that short game area in between two and eight at Bel Air right when I got in and I cut my handicap in half.
And as you know, there's always guys just living there now trying to sneak calls or whatever they're doing over there. But no, it's it's exactly the advice you need, and especially playing around better players. You had a big time coach and someone who was instrumental in your life when you went to high school. Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like golfing at Exeter and who your coach was and what he's done for you in your life?
Jon Orszag (16:20.856)
Yeah, sure. was this guy, George Mangan. was my head. He was actually our when I was a sophomore and junior, they call it an extra call lower and upper because they would want to not call it the same thing as most places. They he was our dorm advisor. And so he was also an English teacher and he was also the golf coach. And he loved golf and absolutely loved it. And he convinced me to play on the team. And
I enjoyed it a ton. Again, good friends, traveling around, playing good courses in New England. he was a real, like his enthusiasm for the game was infectious. And it just, you know, it really gave me even more enthusiasm for the game. And I really enjoyed it. I mean, one of the funny things about our high school golf team.
I'd say probably the two best players were this guy, Pete Jelenik and Eric Freeman. Pete Jelenik was probably at the time, 5'8", would be my guess. And Eric Freeman was seven foot. we probably had, in the number one and two golfers on the team, we probably had the biggest spread and height of any high school golf team in the history of the universe. So.
Kai Sato (17:42.131)
Where would you guys get to play?
Jon Orszag (17:46.15)
So we played our regular weekly like sort of practice was either at Exeter Golf Course, the local public course Wentworth by the Sea or Portsmouth Country Club. Portsmouth Country Club was a Robert John Jones. And then we played at some great courses like we had the opportunity to play Catanzit, which is an absolutely fabulous course. Tabor Academy had their matches there. Deerfield
which is another school we played against, at a place called Crump and Fox, which was great. Whenever we would go out there, we'd try to play Williams course two, which is Taconic, which is absolutely terrific. And then every, I think it was my junior year we played, were able to play the country club when we played the Harvard junior varsity team. And so we got to play some great courses. And it just, that made it even more special too, because I had
never seen any of those courses because I didn't grow up where my family was a member of any country club. So thus seeing a katanzit, seeing these beautiful golf courses was extremely special for me.
Kai Sato (18:58.739)
What was that like when you played at Princeton? Much of the same?
Jon Orszag (19:02.506)
Yeah, the Springdale, the Princeton golf course is one of those golf courses that's 6,500 yards. And you look at a scorecard and you think everyone should shoot a really low score. And no one ever does because the greens are the size of like, you know, a dinner plate and are sloped and they move. if you don't hit in the right spot, it's very, very hard to save par. And so it's just a
It was a great experience. so again, not as good courses, but like the Springdale course to me is still special because I've probably played it 450,000 times in my mind and probably hundreds of times in real life. And although they've redone it since I left and then reorganized the whole routing. it's when people talk about it, it's not the way I remember it, but it definitely was a...
left a big implant on me in the game of golf.
Kai Sato (20:04.495)
What was the first course that you joined personally and did they have a caddy program? What was that whole process experience like?
Jon Orszag (20:11.374)
Sure, well, course, my first course I ever was a member at was the course up in Maine, this little nine hole course. And I think I'm still a lifetime member, I think, because it's like, it was like, at the time, as under 21, I think it was like $500. And to have my initiation fee or whatever it was, and I could go back there now and just pay the annual and I'm a member of a real member again. So that was my first membership was at.
at Friarland Golf Club.
Kai Sato (20:44.623)
And did they have a caddy program? Where was the first place that you played on a regular basis where you had somebody packing your bag? And what was that like being on the other side?
Jon Orszag (20:46.924)
No.
Jon Orszag (20:55.692)
I would say it's the first time where I was a member and they had a caddy program was at Riviera. And Riviera has been a special place for me. I absolutely love it. And Riviera may have one of the best set of caddies of any golf club in the world. Real characters, but absolutely terrific world-class caddies as well. I generally only used two caddies named Alex and Steve at
Kai Sato (21:17.297)
Your man Alex, a great one.
Jon Orszag (21:24.27)
at Riviera. originally Alex Roberts, or as he likes to be known, Mini Zoo, who's moved away to Dallas, and then Alex Hernandez, and Steve Hatamoto. So those are been my sort of traditional caddies there. So for the last 15 years.
Kai Sato (21:39.987)
Steve's the man. I hope to see him this week and Martin's another good one over there. There's some great ones.
Jon Orszag (21:46.082)
Just have Martin make sure he gets a Starbucks on the way to his office, the golf course.
Kai Sato (21:51.653)
I will. Where you're a top 100 guy. So if anyone doesn't know, it means John's played the top 100 rated courses in the world. And even when they they get updated, there's is really this it's like a fraternity where people get together. I've gotten to meet a lot of the guys who are all great, obviously golf enthusiasts like yourself. But where did that come about? When when did you start on that journey and what was it like doing it?
Jon Orszag (22:19.96)
So again, this is the way the golf operates. I had gotten into Riviera and I was out at Riviera with a friend of mine from the White House actually. And we're on the ninth tee and there's a group in front of us and they asked us to play through because we were a two ball and they were a foursome. And I hit a pretty good tee shot and I'm walking up the fairway and this guy, Selwyn Herson, infamous golfer from South Africa I'd say, gets talking to me.
And he says, well, we should play golf sometime. That was a nice shot you hit. And I said, that'd be great. I was a NewArs member and it was very kind and he had been a member for quite some time. So Selwyn and I get playing and he tells me about having played the top 100 golf courses in the world. And he said, how many of you played? And at that point I sort of start looking through the list and I go home and I'm like, well, I've done 30 some odd. It's not a, you know, maybe I could do this.
And I sort of looked at the list and I was like, okay, this is going to be a challenge now. And Selwyn was my inspiration behind that. He's the inspiration for a lot of the people who have done it. And, you know, I sort of almost set it out as like a business plan of, okay, when I'm in Europe, I'm going to try to do these courses. If I'm in Asia for business, I'll try to do those. I can do a special trip to Australia or New Zealand. And
You know, then of course there was Durban Country Club in South Africa and in 2010 they were hosting the World Cup. So it was an absolute perfect time to have this amazing day of playing golf on Durban Country Club with Kevin Curran, a famous tennis player, and then showering at Durban Country Club and walking over and seeing the World Cup semi-finals there. So one of the more memorable top 100 courses to play because of
the nexus with the World Cup.
Kai Sato (24:18.905)
what not a lot of people have done that will do that get to see that breadth of golf courses but also some unique caddying experiences. What's it like having caddies in South Africa or Europe or Asia and how do these all kind of compare and contrast?
Jon Orszag (24:36.014)
Oh, I've had some characters. But the amazing thing about this, the stories about them is just, you can end up playing, you know, I've had some amazing caddies and some, you know, wild personalities from Band in Dunes, you know, where we had a caddy pair, this woman, Sasha and her husband, now husband Brad, they're now in Vegas to
Kai Sato (24:37.969)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Jon Orszag (25:05.261)
I was in New Zealand and I have the craziest story with a caddy. So first of all, I walk on the tee and I didn't know one of the people we were playing with. By the time we walked from the putting green to the first tee, we realized that we have like 20 friends in common, including your good friend, Neil Jacobson. his, well, he's my friend. Neil is absolutely terrific.
Kai Sato (25:25.595)
I don't tell everyone I know Neil, guys. I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. He's one of my best friends.
Jon Orszag (25:33.838)
So the we go on the tee box and his caddy, this guy, Tony Malkin's caddy looks at my golf bag and he said, you have a Canadian head cover. How? Why do you have a Canadian head cover? And I, well, I go, my wife's a Canadian and we spend our summers in Muskoka. He goes, well, I grew up there. And now remember we're in New Zealand. So we're not like anywhere. Like this isn't like we're in Canada. We're in New Zealand, halfway around the world. And he goes, yeah, I grew up there. I go, whereabouts? He goes in Bracebridge and I go, well, do you go back in the summers? And he says, yes.
And I go, well, what do do when you go back in the summers thinking that he like caddies or works at one of the golf courses up there? And he goes, well, I work for a house management company. When I go back and I go, again, Muskoka is not large. And I go, which one? goes, I work for this guy, Nick Bell. And I'm like, Nick manages our house. So this caddy had previously, his name's Walker, had previously actually been at our house in Canada, which is just, if you think about this, like the
Kai Sato (26:23.763)
You
Jon Orszag (26:32.824)
connectivity and the small-worldness of it. We're sitting in New Zealand on a first tee box and we have the connections to Neil Jacobson who's a Bel Air member and where my wife has spent most of her life going in the summers in Muskoka, Canada. So it's a really, it's a crazy game in the connections that you have.
Kai Sato (26:55.517)
That's absolutely insane. I think it kind of touches on why the uniqueness of having a caddy with you and why a lot of the great courses prefer to maintain that tradition is it's so enriching, right? It's really a chaperone, a sherpa that you have. And so it could be someone who's been doing it for a couple of days or months as a 15-year-old or someone who's doing it at 50 and all the more allure and enriching for the experience itself.
Jon Orszag (27:22.294)
Absolutely. mean, caddies really do or can make the experience and the difference between like this great personable caddy and like who's your partner for the for four hours or more if you're on a trip and one that's just say carrying the bag. It really can it can can make or break an experience at a golf course.
Kai Sato (27:45.147)
No question. I just got to go play two courses for the first time last week. Garden City Men's and Deepdale. Of course, got to share. Anytime I go anywhere, guys, I check in with Orzee. I want his take on it, advice. Who do I need to meet? I actually used John Orzak's locker when I was staying at Deepdale. But I was lucky to have a really great caddy guy who had been playing professionally for a while. Played Division 1 golf at Purdue. His name is Fernando.
And he just made the experience so great. a lot of great caddies, great players, when they start to loop for you sometimes have a hard time being patient. He was incredible. He read the greens perfectly. He got me around the golf course and could not have had a better day with some dear friends, much like John touched on. so totally, totally get it. And if you get to know John or get his email address at some point in time, you always want to check in with him before he goes anywhere because he'll tell you not only
where to hit it, where to stay, what the locker room attendant's name is, all of it. He's a bit of a sage on a lot of levels. If you wouldn't mind, it's one of my favorite stories, and there are a few others I'm going to twist your arm to share. But it does involve a former caddy. And his name is Bill Clinton. He became the president of United States. You went to work for him. When President Clinton was giving an address at Princeton, will you share that story and kind of talk about your guys' relationship?
Jon Orszag (29:10.574)
Well, was president of United States and I had this great opportunity to go work for him. One of my professors at Princeton, Alan Krueger, had been appointed as the chief economist at the Labor Department and he had asked me to go with him. So I had gone there and then I had the opportunity to go work at the White House on President Clinton's National Economic Council. And every 50 years, Princeton invites the president of United States to
come speak at graduation on one of their anniversary dates. so that was one, my graduation day was one of those anniversary dates that the president, who was my boss, ultimate boss at that time, was coming to speak. And so I had the great fortune that in his speech, he told me that as soon as graduation was over, he wanted me right back at work, which I think I was a day or two later. So.
Kai Sato (30:07.731)
Have you guys played some golf together?
Jon Orszag (30:10.744)
I've had the fortune to play golf with him many times. In LA, I've taken him to Riviera a couple times. We've played in New York. We've played in various places around the world.
Kai Sato (30:22.055)
Has he ever talked about his days looping?
Jon Orszag (30:25.602)
He hasn't with me. Usually, it's, you know, there's, let's just say the rounds don't go fast. I'm usually accustomed to rounds that are under four hours. And when you're the former president of the United States, there's many people who wanna come talk to you. He also likes to take his time and tell stories of various things. So let's just say the rounds are longer. And so...
Kai Sato (30:50.493)
For anyone who hasn't had to endure it, when a former president is playing your golf course, or maybe even a current one, it's a real pain in the ass. So you pull up there and secret service everywhere. There's cars everywhere. You can't get in and out. The flow is a bit of a mess. So you'd rather they be in your group than kind of blocking you from accessing your day.
Jon Orszag (31:08.238)
What you realize is that in the groups in front of him, behind him, there are secret service agents who have guns. so you tend to, and there may be when he's the current president, there are folks with guns nearby at all times. So it really means you don't want to stray too far from your own fairway.
Kai Sato (31:25.607)
Somewhat similarly, you are rather involved with Tiger Woods and Tiger Woods Foundation. How did that come about? And I know you've gotten to play some rounds with Tiger, but can you tell us about that relationship and the organization, things you'd want readers and listeners to know?
Jon Orszag (31:41.934)
I got involved through my friend Leo Tucker originally. Leo was on the local DC board of the Tiger Woods Foundation. so he asked if I would get involved out here in California. And so what I realized was as much as people think of Tiger Woods as this golfer, the foundation is really an education foundation. It masquerades in some sense as a golf foundation, but fundamentally it is one of the most incredible education.
And it has this incredible learning center in Anaheim and now others around the country. And what it's done is provide after school opportunities in STEM programs and science technology, mathematics to underprivileged kids, not only in California now, but in other places around the country.
It's really an incredible operation. Cause if you think about what these afterschool programs are doing, it's helping kids with education. It's helping parents with childcare. It's helping on crime prevention and this learning center, these learning centers that the Tiger Woods Foundation, which is now known as the TGR foundation has, has built, are so amazing that the, a lot of the local school systems have found that the
The various programs that they have and the technology that they have is so much more superior to what the school has been able to invest in given the limited resources that governments have that they actually bring their kids to do their science classes at the learning center. So the various school systems will run like a week program though and where the kids actually go every day to school at these learning centers because the programs are so strong. And so
It really is a testament to Tiger and what he's built that he doesn't get very much credit for this. He doesn't love to talk about it. But the work that the foundation is doing is really incredible. And it's really grown over time as we've added learning centers in various places. And he deserves a lot of credit for all that's been done in this area. And it's one of the things I'm
Jon Orszag (34:03.092)
extremely proud of being part of that board of directors.
Kai Sato (34:06.119)
What should people know that just the sheer scale of it, its point of emphasis, what are some things that need to be better known or misunderstood?
Jon Orszag (34:14.602)
It's just that, again, this is the greatest golfer of all time, arguably. I mean, we can get into a debate about whether it's Jack Nicklaus or him or maybe Bobby Jones, but it's definitely one of the greatest golfers that's ever walked the face of this. And here's somebody who, behind the scenes, does all of this good work for so many people. And
Kai Sato (34:31.399)
unquestionably.
Jon Orszag (34:42.454)
If we think about the number of lives that are impacted, not only there's kids that go through these programs on like a daily or weekly basis, there's kids who just come for like a short summer program, there's kids who get scholarships that then, where they get mentorship and I've been a mentor for one of the, it's called Earl Woods Scholars, so they're after Tiger's father, and the mentee that I had went to UCLA.
And so there's just so many different ways that they are changing the trajectory of people's lives. And again, people think about Tiger as this golfer, but you don't really think about him as a philanthropist. And he's done all this great work to make lives better. And he does deserve a lot more credit for
Kai Sato (35:35.133)
Great to know. Yeah, it's in an organization that comes down to the alums and what they go and do, right? And so we get to work with the Evans Scholars, or the We Met Scholars, just in caddying. But you look at what Tiger has done, it's what those kids have done in their careers and will continue to go on their careers. And it takes years, decades. You yourself, a Marshall scholar, right? So it's a matter of what people go and do when they're given that opportunity.
I implore all organizations, but people who are listening, just making sure you're telling the stories of your alums and helping people understand the tangible value that's brought there. Because oftentimes, you don't want to brag about it. Or I'm sure Tiger doesn't want to just rattle off a list of names. But those kids truly changed the trajectory of their lives. And it took years and years. Forget the money. Years and years of dedication on a lot of people's hearts. Similarly, you're deeply involved with the first T.
Can you tell us a little bit, not just in Los Angeles, at the national level, how'd that come about? What do you enjoy about that experience? And what do people need to know about what's going on with the first team?
Jon Orszag (36:44.866)
Well, again, the First T is another one of those organizations that trying to use the game of golf to improve people's lives. Greg McLaughlin, who had previously run the Tiger Woods Foundation and went to the PGA to be involved with the senior tour and then had other jobs, was appointed as the head of the First T program a number of years ago. And so he had asked me to join. I'd already been involved in the First T in various ways.
previous to that, but he asked me to get involved as a trustee. And one of the things that was important to me was that this not just be about a golf program, that it actually be about education and strengthening the life skills elements that the first he had already been very focused on. But part of, to me, you can't just focus on life skills, but also helping so many of these
kids who are underprivileged have more educational opportunities. So in some sense, the way I've sort of thought about it in my mind is that you had the Tiger Woods Foundation that was really coming at things from an education perspective. And the first tee, which was coming things from like sort of life skills and using golf in a more direct way perspective. And I saw them converging in some ways or the first team moving in the direction of adding.
more education. And when Greg committed to that, then that was sort of part of what I was most interested in. And it's part of what I've tried to help give back as part of my role in the First T is a scholarship element of what the First T has been involved in.
Kai Sato (38:30.341)
Incredible and I I forgot to give a quick shout out to the Michelle's Bemis and Kim who you had first put me in touch with with Tiger but always trying to figure out how do these great organizations collaborate right and in thinking about the kids and how they benefit because like you said it's it's life skills at school it's golf it's activities but how do you how do you make sure that this is as robust of an opportunity for each of these people and and knowing that they got to fill time and they have to be safe and protected but
You know having a couple kids myself and you've got three daughters what they do all day is cumbersome right and getting them to places and making sure that it's fulfilling but I think that's where you've been certainly a nonprofit mentor to me of making sure that certain organizations are collaborating and playing nicely and making sure that the kids are having an experience that just oozes of value and it's also a lot of fun.
Jon Orszag (39:24.236)
Yeah, mean, correct me if I'm wrong. You know, in some sense, your role in Fogg, which is one of these important organizations in the role of golf in Los Angeles, that was, I believe, where Tiger first met Jack Nicholas for the first time. And it's just sort of how this is all then connected together in these different organizations.
Kai Sato (39:38.515)
100%.
Kai Sato (39:44.808)
for people to sew it together. There's an organization called Fog Friends of Golf, and it was started by the late former pro at Bell Air, Mr. Marins, Eddie Marins, and he started with John Anderson, Anderson School Business. And really, they started this kind of one-day clinic where you bring in touring pro, you'd have a tour, an event, raise some money, and then try to give some scholarships. And originally, it was kind of like a slush fund for UCLA. But just fast forward, 1991.
There was a collegiate golfer at Arizona State who was supposed to be featured that day named Phil Mickelson. He couldn't make it, so they pulled in some skinny kid from Cypress, California. And Tiger got to meet the big pro of the day, guy named Jack Nicholas. And I think we all know where things transpired from there. But these things don't just happen. They require the efforts of people like John Orzak to make sure that these organizations exist, they collaborate.
And you just don't know the serendipity of that day. Who knows? I've never had a chance to ask Tiger, maybe you have, what it was like to meet Jack. And obviously, he followed his career. But you just don't know the magic that can happen. And you've got to be patient with these things, because they can take time. And John put me in touch with the two Michelles who have been instrumental in building Tiger Woods Foundation. And so Fogg was able to collaborate starting last year. And we're doing it again this year of.
backing the one initiative that does involve kids in golf and sending a couple of kids that go up to play Pebble Beach, which is an incredible opportunity and initiative with Taylor Made. So those are just some of the things that he does behind the scenes to make sure that the right things happen, the right people meet. And obviously, he never wants any credit for them. But that's how this guy's kind of wired and how he knows the game is so good and how he gives back to it.
So before I take up your entire day, and thankfully I'm not being billed for this because I know that that's a pretty hefty number. Can you tell me the last time you threw a bag over shoulder, did a little looping? I think there was a story that may have even involved Tiger Woods.
Jon Orszag (41:54.754)
There is. My last time at Caddy was a few years ago for my friend Sebastian Maniscalco, who many of you may know is this very famous comic. And he got invited to play in a celebrity outing as part of the Genesis at Riviera. And so I was his caddy and on the first hole, which was the 10th hole, Tiger was walking with our group and Sebastian made a true birdie, Net Eagle.
in front of Tiger. I'll take a little bit of credit for the advice. he proceeded to Tiger, you know, couldn't believe how well Sebastian played. Tiger walks off to go follow another group. And let's just say Sebastian reverted to his mean. So.
Kai Sato (42:30.422)
You
Kai Sato (42:44.027)
Well, hey, you got it done when it mattered. Now Tiger just thinks Sebastian's incredible. He's throwing it through Netflix. He's like, yeah, that's that really good golfer I saw make that eagle.
Jon Orszag (42:51.916)
He's, was, Sebastian showed up when he needed to. So that's the kind of, that's the kind of player I like to caddy for. Shows up when absolutely necessary when the pressure is on.
Kai Sato (42:58.739)
stars close. That's right. Stars close the show before I let you go. Can you two things? If you think about your involvement, your journey, right? Being this kid who started falling in love with the game because his grandfather got disenfranchised with it to pack into bags to gain better access to clubs, which many of us have done. And then taking on not only high school collegiate golf and
then deciding to play the top 100 doing it, what would you impart to, you know, that 10, 12, 15, even 20 year old who maybe knows about golf, maybe likes golf, maybe knows a little bit about cadding. If you could give them a piece of advice, what would you impart to them?
Jon Orszag (43:46.574)
The first thing I would impart is it's a game. It's fun and you have to enjoy it. And too often, I've hosted people and look, I probably was like this when I was younger, where you have this desire to play well on every given day. And when you actually just enjoy it and enjoy the people you're out there with and enjoy that you'll hit some good shots and some bad shots, it becomes a much more enjoyable experience.
And I think over time, in part because my golf game is nowhere near as good as it once was, don't hit it as far, work has gotten in the way, family, et cetera.
Kai Sato (44:27.731)
Don't believe any of this nonsense. John's still a very good golfer, maybe one of the best amateur putters you'll ever find. But sure, go ahead.
Jon Orszag (44:32.462)
Kai's making that up just so we're all clear. If you just go and enjoy it, it's just so much better. this year I've unfortunately only played twice. I went out with a friend, actually, play Deepdale. We had the most enjoyable day. I played pretty well, given I hadn't touched my clubs in a long time. you think about those moments of...
you're out there with a friend and enjoying the day and that's or friends and that's what the game's all about. And I think when you're 12, 15, 18 and you're trying to like scratch and try to get better, you lose sight of some of that. It is just a game. And I think sometimes when people get upset, you know, playing they again forget we are playing a game and just enjoy it. And that's, think what's magical about it is
even when you're not playing well, you can still have a great time. And I think that it definitely makes it a much better experience. And I'm only saying that in part because my game's gotten worse, so I have to adopt that view because I just can't expect to play well anymore.
Kai Sato (45:40.915)
Well, if you want, can share a snibby story or a Martin story. it's snibby, you can, you can talk about how you can add some levity to the round with guys like that.
Jon Orszag (45:47.246)
Thank
Jon Orszag (45:53.42)
Well, the last it wasn't the last time I played with Snibby, but we were down Snibby for his 50th birthday. You probably know this asked me because I really want to do a golf trip for my 50th birthday. And I was like, okay, great. So he and his wife and my wife are good friends. So we told him we had a once in a lifetime opportunity to go on a golf trip together for his 50th. So we plan this week long trip. And the last round we had, it was Peter Mathis was playing as well, who you know, and
So there four of us, we're at a course in Australia and let's just say there are snakes in the grass that were poisonous so you did not want to look for any golf balls. And I think Snibby may have lost three dozen golf balls. So instead of 21 his new nickname may be 36.
Kai Sato (46:40.433)
So just so people know, Jason's going to be one of the great guys, also one of the great surgeons you will ever find. But golf game is not his priority. Having fun certainly is, and he always does. And he's an absolute gem to be around.
Jon Orszag (46:53.934)
He's the best. Just so we're clear, he's the best and everything he touches is the best. So he's just one of one in the world.
Kai Sato (47:03.901)
Before I let you hop, you've been around this game. You've met a lot of folks. Are there other stories that you've come across? People that inspire you, people that you think we should go talk to and hear what their days looping were like.
Jon Orszag (47:16.918)
I think that list is so long because the game's been so good to so many people. And I think that just for everybody who, you I think there's a whole list of people where the game has given back to them in all kinds of ways. Whether they're a professional golfer or an amateur or even like, I think even somebody, we're just talking about Jason Snibby, think, who let's just say golf is not as, he's a far better surgeon than he.
and wine drinker and pizza cooker than he is golfer. And to him, I think he would say the game's given him all these great friendships at Bel Air and the kind of trip that we had, which we'll all remember for the rest of our lives. I mean, because we just have stories that go on forever from like Wallaby to our trip to get to just Tarra Eaddy because there was this flood in New Zealand. So it's just all these different aspects of that.
that are special and it's those experiences that really make the game so special.
Kai Sato (48:18.795)
Well said. Thank you so much for your time sharing some stories that you may not share with others. I cherish you as a friend. Mary, thanks so much for sharing, John. And please let him come play some golf with me sometime when you guys get back in town.
Jon Orszag (48:33.87)
Well, let's do kind of, and just so we're clear for everyone out there, Kai is one of the great hosts and great ambassadors to the game as well. And this program he has is just trying to grow the game and show more of the experiences. So he deserves a big, you know, thank you too. And a big round of applause from all the golfers out there.
Kai Sato (48:53.553)
Love you, buddy. Have a great day, okay?
Jon Orszag (48:55.726)
Take care. See ya.